What Pastors’ Kids Wish You Knew

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Megan Hill
Welcome, everybody. We are so glad that you are here. This is raising kids. Let’s see what is it raising kids in ministry, insights from pastor’s kids. And we are coming to you not as experts in raising pastor’s kids, but we are experts at being pastors kids. And so we’re here to tell you a little bit about our experiences as pastors kids, and to give you some hope, that pastor’s kids can go on to do well and to flourish and to enjoy the Lord and that there’s even grace in being a pastor’s kid or being the kid of somebody in ministry. Before we start, I’m just interested to hear from you maybe by a show of hands, how many of you here are in ministry currently? Great. How many of you are preparing for ministry or seminary student? You’re doing an internship, you’re getting ready for ministry? Okay. Great. How many of you are here because you’re interested in supporting other pastors, kids in your church or supporting the kids of people who are in your church? Great. How about how many of you grew up in ministry yourself? You are a pastor’s kid. That’s great. We see you. How many of you have young children? Good. Okay. And are any of you have teenagers? Okay, young adult children. Okay, great. That just helps us to give a sense of who we’re talking to. We’re so glad that all of you are here. And we hope that some of the things that we say something that we say will be helpful to all of you. Um, before we get started with introductions, I’m just going to pray for our time. And then I’m going to have each of us introduce ourselves, so you know who we’re who you’re talking to. So let’s go ahead and pray. Father, we thank you so much that you are building your church, and that the gates of hell will not prevail against it. We thank you so much for the good work of being a laborer in your harvest field, we thank You for the privilege that it is to be involved in the ministry of your church. Lord, we thank you for the grace of Jesus that covers all of our weaknesses, all of our failings, all of our sins, and that the grace of your spirit that helps us to live more and more like Christ day by day, I pray that as we talk and discuss some things today, Lord, that the words of our mouth and the meditations of our heart would be pleasing in your sight. And we pray all of this in Jesus name, Amen. So I’d like to just ask Gavin to introduce himself and then Winfrey and then I’ll introduce myself. Sure,

Gavin Ortlund
yeah, happy to be here with everybody. My name is Gavin ortlund. I’m a pastor in Ojai, California, just about an hour and a half northwest of LA. And we have five children. The oldest is 10. The youngest is one. So pray for my wife, while I’m traveling away, and I was also a pastor’s kid growing up, especially for my high school years. And my grandfather was also a pastor. So there’s a lot of ministry in my family. So I’ve thought about this topic a lot.

Winfree Brisley
My name is Winfree brisley. And I work for the gospel Coalition on the editorial staff, and I’m coming from Charlotte, North Carolina. I’m a mom. Oh, yay, Charlotte, okay. I’m a mom of three kids who are not pastor’s kids. I’m the ministry person in our home. But I am a pastor’s kid. My dad, and my grandfather and my uncle. Were all pastors. And so I grew up in a big ministry family.

Megan Hill
And I’m Megan Hill. I’m the managing editor at the gospel coalition. I grew up as the daughter of a pastor in Coventry, Connecticut, he served in the same church actually, for 38 years. So nearly my entire growing up life, we had the privilege of serving in the same church. And now I am married to a pastor, we live in West Springfield, Massachusetts, and we have four children. We have three boys who are in high school, and then we have a little girl who is six. So one foot in both parenting worlds. Just to let you know as well that we will take a few questions at the end, we won’t have time to answer all the questions there are, but we will take a few. So if you have one, you can jot it down as we go along. So what do you guys think are some of the common experiences of life and ministry?

Winfree Brisley
Yeah, I think the first word that usually comes to mind is fishbowl. I often hear a lot of people use that to describe this idea of kind of living in this glass situation where everyone’s watching you. And I think what comes with that, then is sort of a sense of other people’s expectations and wondering, you know, are they watching every move? What are they think of what I’m doing and trying to kind of sort out how as a kid you respond to those things and what it’s going to look like to internalize them or not. But the fishbowl is kind of the big one that sticks out for me.

Gavin Ortlund
Yeah, maybe one that’s less thought of would be travel, sometimes your parents will travel more. Unfortunately, another experience can be finances can be tight, depending upon your circumstances. I think the word pressure comes to my mind as maybe a potential negative that sometimes, and sometimes it’s no one’s fault. Sometimes I think a lot of times, it’s not from bad intentions from anyone. But sometimes there can be an expectation for the pastor’s kids to act differently because they’re the pastor’s kids. And that can lead to a feeling of pressure that can be unhelpful and unpleasant. But one thing I do want to say at the beginning, kind of following up on something you said earlier, Megan is just it’s not all bad. You know, I think sometimes we think about being a pastor’s kid. And we think of some of the challenges. There are some real benefits to that. So I know we’ll talk about that, too.

Megan Hill
So Winfrey, what’s one thing your parents did? Right? Yeah,

Winfree Brisley
so I’ll give one super practical one. And this may seem kind of odd, but we always went to church on vacation. And the reason I think that was a big deal for me as a pastor’s kid, was it showed me early on this church thing isn’t just about my dad’s job, right? When he’s off work, we’re still going. So why is that? And I really began to understand that, oh, my parents are centering their whole life around this god that they’re teaching me about. And they really have a real relationship to the point that we’re gonna get up early on vacation and go and worship him. And so I think it could have easily just seemed like, well, some people’s dads or doctors or teachers or lawyers, and my dad’s a pastor, but I really understood that it was about our whole life and not just his work.

Gavin Ortlund
Yeah, I mentioned two things for me. One is there was never any sense of pressure from my parents to go into ministry myself. I know that might seem surprising, because so many of the Portland’s have. But it was not planned that way. You know, I, in fact, that was actually a hesitation I had to work through I thought, I was feeling the call to ministry, when I was in college, doing youth ministry, at just loving it, I was just feeling this pole to this, like, this is what I want to spend my life doing, pursuing people for the gospel. And I had to work through a hesitation of am I just drawn to this because it’s what I’ve seen in my family. At that point, two of my older brothers were also in seminary. So you know, I’ve seen a lot of ministry in my family. What helped me was to realize my family isn’t a reason to go into ministry, it’s also not a reason not to go. And it’s just it freed me to just follow Christ and how I sensed he was calling me. But my dad and my mom, there was never any sense of pressure or expectation for one pathway versus another. The main thing was just, I feel like my parents modeled an authentic walk with Christ. And I really have just really one thing to say that I’ll probably try to hit it from different angles in this entire time we have and that’s, I think, the most important thing we can do for our kids. And what I’m trying to do with my kids, is just be the same person, as a pastor, or someone in ministry, as you are as a parent, and let your love for Christ be what is driving both of those things. Because if there’s any sense of hypocrisy, or you’re acting one way in front of your church, and then you’re parenting differently from a different heart, or impulse, and it’s not the same desire to serve Christ, that is fueling both of those, our kids will pick up on that. And I think the greatest gift we can give them is just to honestly walk with Christ closely every day. That means we’re apologizing to our families, we’re repenting with the lead repenter in our home. There’s just no substitute for that. And I think that’s what that’s the gift I was given with my parents, I have no doubt where my parents stand, what their convictions are, I’ve seen them and who they really are. And that’s just such a gift to me that I hope to give to my kids as well. That’s

Megan Hill
really helpful. I’d say for me, one of the things that my parents did, right was that they always believed themselves and communicated that ministry, life is a good life. And it was always presented as we get to do this, what a privilege to be able to do this. And yes, this is hard. We’re walking alongside this person who is struggling with sin, but what we get to walk alongside them. And what a privilege that is, yes, we’re walking alongside this person that screaming but what a privilege to be in a place where we get to come alongside them and grieve alongside them. And then we also get to hold the babies and go to the weddings and get to rejoice with God’s people too. And so I always felt like this ministry, life is a good life and that was something my parents really communicated to us. So what about expectations? I mean, parent, you know, churches can be come on a variety of spectrums of what they expect. Back of church kids, whether it says Gavin, you said earlier like that you would be holier and you would know your Bible and you would be more theologically astute. Or it could be what you were. Or it could be that you would be friends with their kids friends, or, you know, there can be a whole range of expectations that the church can place on pastors and elders, kids and other kids whose parents are in ministry leadership, how did your parents handle that Gavin, you want to start?

Gavin Ortlund
One thing that I think my parents did really well, that I’m trying to practice with my kids as well is never discipline from a motivation of pride or embarrassment. It’s, it’s easy to, it’s easy to know that that’s wrong. But it is also easy to slip into that. If you’re the pastor and your kids are disobeying you, and it’s at a church event, then you can be tempted to respond, not based upon what is best for your child, but based upon just the optics of it, and the sense of pressure that you might feel. And so I just want to keep coming back to this in my own parenting, to make the welfare of my children the main focus. The main thing is, I’m discipling them, I’m teaching them what it means to walk with God, I’m teaching them good manners, I’m teaching them how to love others. I’m not disciplining because I’m the pastor. You know, in other words, I want to, I want to pastor them the same way and parent them the same way, as I would if I didn’t happen to be called to be a pastor, I don’t want there to be a sense of the pressure of appearances to influence how I’m doing things. It’s again, a simple point. But it is easy to slip into that we have to check our motives. If you’re at the church barbecue, and one of your kids is, you know, throwing a cupcake across the room or something like this, this can happen. You can be tempted to respond by with by how it reflects upon you. And what you want to do instead is I want to respond by based on what is godly. And there’s a big difference between those two things. So I just think that’s one. One thing, we have to keep revisiting and making sure I want to love my kids, I want to do what is best for them. And I don’t want to be motivated by any sense of external pressure that maybe may cause me to take my eyes off of that.

Winfree Brisley
Yeah, I also think that pastors kids will have a sense that there are expectations for them. And what weeds pastor’s kids decide to do with them will have a lot to do with how we see our parents handle them. And so I think you can model for your children what to do with these expectations that church members put on you. And so I remember a time when I was probably like an elementary aged child. And there was some ministry of the church that really wanted my mom to be involved as a pastor’s wife. But it was going to meet I think, like weekly on a on a week night. And she remember there being kind of a family conversation. And my dad was already out some nights for deacons meeting and visitation and all these things. And it just wasn’t gonna work for this family with young children to have mom or dad out almost every night of the week. And so it was just decided, like, okay, Mom’s not gonna participate in this. And to be honest, some people really weren’t happy about it. But that was a good opportunity for me to see hate. My parents are being thoughtful and intentional. They’re not just doing something because it’s expected of them. And it’s okay to not do everything that certain members of the Church expect of you. And so I think that helped me as I went along, to also realize, I don’t I’m not subject to the whims of everyone in the congregation, either. I don’t always have to do something just because they want me to. And so what does it look like to be thoughtful and wise, and consider what really makes sense in this situation? Because, you know, only you, as the pastor’s family really know what will work for your dynamics. And so everything that everyone would like, have your children or a view is not going to be reasonable. And so it’s helpful if you go ahead and model for them that you can say no, sometimes, if

Gavin Ortlund
I could just follow up on that, because I think it’s so helpful. And it’s easy again, for me to know that in principle, but in the moment, I have to, sometimes I have to apply the gospel to that sense of, you know, I’m going to disappoint this person by saying No, and it’s okay to disappoint people sometimes. Saying yes to one thing always means you’re saying no to something else. And I just have to go back to my priorities regularly and say that the order of priorities is first my own walk with Christ. Second, my family, then ministry kind of to others flows out beyond that. And so I don’t I want my kids to feel that they’re actually more important to me than the external ministry important as that all is. And so it’s just let’s encourage each other and give each other permission that it’s okay to disappoint people sometimes, because sometimes people will have expectations upon you that are not realistic. And sometimes you need to prioritize your fate. Only and that’s okay to do

Megan Hill
also feel like as a kid, and this may relate to the first thing that you said Gavin, but as a kid I needed somehow to recognize not every expectation is wrong or not every expectation is even unique to pastor’s kids. And so, you know, when my parents were saying, Okay, let’s get ready for church, you know, for me to, for them to have discipled me enough to know like that actually, this is what the Lord calls all of his followers to do you know, and there are I can remember seasons of my life, especially when I was a teenager, feeling sort of put out that I was a pastor’s kid, and like, oh, man, all this stuff is so hard to be a pastor’s kid. And I can remember my parents being like, No, this stuff that you’re we’re asking you to do is just the stuff that Jesus asks his followers to do. This is not unusual. This is not even my commands are not burdensome, says the Lord. You know, this is not an extra, some extra burden. This is actually just what the Lord calls and so I think that robust discipleship where our kids are seeing, they’re able to differentiate, okay, yes, I didn’t wear an iron hairbow. Well, that’s unreasonable. But I’m showing up at church. No, that’s actually just what Jesus is calling me to do. What do you think is something that parents administrators should be aware of? Gavin, what do you think, something that we might fall into? I mean, you are a pastor’s kid, you are raising pastor’s kids.

Gavin Ortlund
I think especially maybe for those of us in the room who are early on in our ministry, it’s good to be aware in advance that there is a lot of suffering, sometimes involved in ministry, and not to make that overly grandiose. To your point, Megan, you made a great point that a lot of these things that we might wrestle with in ministry are basically are just Christian responsibilities. I mean, all of those who follow Jesus will suffer at times in this world. But there are forms of suffering that happened in in ministry, many of you know that, you know, as you get further into your ministry, there are wounds that you bear, I think one of the most difficult ones is betrayal. You know, you’ll have people who you think are in your corner, and over time, some people will, will reveal themselves to be otherwise. And those, those are deep wounds that happen. And so I think just sort of counting the cost early on in your ministry, knowing that that will happen, being prepared for that emotionally relationally pacing yourself taking Sabbath rest, taking good care of yourself, and then thinking about your kids. And there’s a fine line that can be there. You don’t want to share everything with your kids, you also want to be be able to be honest. And so I think about my parents and I, I knew when they were suffering in ministry, they would we would talk about that. But I also didn’t feel like they over shared. And so something my wife and I have had to think about a lot is when there is something difficult, we’re going through in ministry, to be sensitive to what our kids even can overhear from the next room. If we’re, you know, debriefing how a Sunday morning when I can be a perfectionist, so I can be thinking about how my sermon could have been better, or something that happened. That was a challenge in the church. And we’ve had to as our kids have gotten older, we have younger kids, but they’re old enough now is to overhear us. And so we have to be mindful of what they’re hearing, we never want them to hear us complaining about church, you know that that can be really unhelpful for them, especially when they’re so young. So you have to think about the wisdom of on the one hand, what is transparency look like with your kids about when you’re suffering, and not acting like, you know, you can’t ever be honest about that. On the other hand, you want to be deliberate and intentional with how much you share, and not be constantly complaining, or complaining in an ungodly way. So there’s a fine line there. But I think just at the front end, knowing there will be suffering, and let’s come, let’s come up with a game plan. You know, maybe you and your spouse want to have a sort of strategy in advance for when you enter into a difficult season of ministry, as we all will, you know, ministry is full of these wilderness times and the seasons that are hard that when we get there, how how will what will our strategy be for how we parent well through that, of course, we won’t always know in advance, but even just being emotionally prepared for that. And thinking about that is a good, good first step.

Winfree Brisley
Yeah, I want to pick up on what Gavin was saying about the way that you talk about the church to your children and having some level of transparency but being wise about that. I think it’s it’s helpful to consider that the way that your children view the church and their sort of feelings and impressions of what ministry and church life is, we’ll have a lot to do with the way that you’ve talked about it and presented in your home. And I don’t say that to put pressure on you but just to it by way of encouragement to sort of think through. If your kids were going to complete this sentence, what would they say if you ask them, my dad or my mom thinks minutes st is blank, what word would they say? And I think if you had asked me that at any point in my childhood, and still to this day, I would say my dad thinks church ministry is a privilege. And I internalize that to the degree that I found myself when people say, What’s it like to work for the gospel coalition, I say, Oh, it’s a privilege. And it is a beautiful thing that my dad’s joy in ministry. And I say that even though there were times of suffering in ministry, there were times that I knew he was having a very difficult time, though I didn’t know the details of it. And but whether he was in a really joyful and light season of ministry, or whether he was in a really hard season of ministry, his go to his song, and he really believed it was It is a privilege to serve the Lord. It is a privilege to minister to God’s people. And so that was just internalized for me. So that that is the way I view ministry. And I don’t think it’s probably a surprise then that my brother is a missionary, I work for the gospel coalition, we love the word of the Lord and His work and His Kingdom. And I think that had a lot to do with just the way our dad represented the life of ministry.

Megan Hill
And I think that has effects even on the whole congregation to when they have people in ministry, who who view it as a privilege and not as a hardship. And that that just has implications for all for the whole body really. So in our conversation beforehand, several weeks ago, and are planning for this panel, we started talking about the importance as parents of children, of asking them good questions. And each of you express that, like when you were growing up, your parents took notice of you as a human being and asked you questions about what you thought about things, how you felt about things, you know, we’re very sort of concerned about you and your discipleship and how you were going, coming along in the Lord. So what are some questions just on a very practical level? What are some questions that you think that pastors, pastors, families can ask their kids that would be helpful to their kids?

Winfree Brisley
Yeah, I’ll give you a couple. One that I’ve just picked up from a pastor I know recently, but another one from growing up. So I think it’s helpful. And this may sound basic, but to ask your kids pastors before you preach, here’s a sermon illustration I was thinking about using that involves you, would you mind if I told that story, right? I think it’s probably a fairly common experience of pastors kids to get into a service on Sunday morning, and your dad launches into a really wonderful sermon point, but it happens to all be about you. And maybe you roll with it, and that’s fine. Or maybe you’re embarrassed. And so I think it’s a great thing as you think about using some of those stories to go ahead of time to your child and ask if it would be okay and be prepared. If they say, I’d really rather you didn’t do that, to pick a different illustration, right, and just to honor their privacy, and then just be thoughtful about how they might experience the attention that they will receive. Because surely when you start on this story about them, then a lot of eyes are going to turn their way. So I would I would ask how they feel about being a sermon illustration.

Megan Hill
I have a friend who pays their kids every time they’re getting asks, he says, Can I use you and then he gives them $1 or $5, or whatever the

Winfree Brisley
going rate is. So that does sweeten the deal a little bit to be used in the sermon, I would have been much more interested in being a sermon illustration, if I’d had that deal. I did not I wouldn’t do

Gavin Ortlund
it for any less than $25.

Winfree Brisley
Inflation. But then the other one that I just picked up from a pastor friend recently, and I thought this was great to go back to that idea that pastor’s kids sort of feel like they’re in a fishbowl sometimes is that. So they had moved into this new senior pastor role at a church and there was sort of a Pew that was the pastor family pew, right. Some of you may know this, there was one pew upfront, very visible, where the senior pastor’s family at this church had forever and ever sat. And some point and maybe their first year of ministry there, they were talking to their kids and discovered that their teenage daughter felt very selfconscious sitting there. And it was hard for her to sort of be in view of the entire congregation as she tried to come and worship, you know, being a teenage girl can be hard. And so they said, you know, what, what would it be better if we if our family sat in the balcony? And she said, yeah, that’d be great. And so they moved to the balcony. And that was unconventional for the church, but it showed their daughter, hey, we want you to be able to come and worship and feel comfortable and at home with the people of God. And so if sitting in the balcony will let you do that, then we’ll sit at the balcony. And it doesn’t matter if that’s not what the pastor is normally done. So maybe even asking your kids how do you feel about where we sit in the sanctuary? Are there things we could do to make you more comfortable at church? Is there anything that that we’re doing now or that makes you uncomfortable? And how could we maybe meet you in that way?

Gavin Ortlund
I think that it’s such a great idea of just, you know, insisting upon the biblical requirements, which would be that we’re going to go to church, or we’re going to worship the Lord, but not going further than those requirements by insisting upon what might be a tradition or an expectation. That’s not in the Scripture. And that’s where in the sanctuary you sit, and just what is reflected in that, as I think about that is just understanding, you know, there’s the biblical calling that we raise up our children in the fear and admonition of the Lord. But then there’s the added, adding on of don’t exasperate them. And I think just that sense of, we want to understand how they’re experiencing church. And if there are ways we can flex within the biblical requirements. I think that’s just wonderful to think about, and even just asking them, you know, we can forget to ask, how are you experiencing church? What do you like most about it? You know, how can I help your church experience be helping you and your walk with Jesus these days? I think those are great questions. I’ll just add one other kind of category of question that I think is great for us to ask our kids. And that’s just to ask them theological questions, and do teaching of theology. I like to do it. You know, in Deuteronomy, it talks about how when you walk, by the way, teach your children about the Lord. And so I try to find these little times where you don’t have to plan it into your schedule, but it’s just a natural part of your day. So I drive them to school in the mornings. And that’s always a fun time. And it’s a short drive, but there’s enough time in there to give them a Bible verse each day. And then sometimes I’ll even ask them, you know, I’ll give them a verse about how Jesus is a merciful high priest, and I’ll say, What do you think that means. And I’d like to problematize a verse for them and see if they can articulate something in response. And it just starts them to think about these passages. So even just basic conversations about discipleship about what it means to follow Jesus are great, great things to do with our kids.

Megan Hill
One of the things that my dad used to do is when he was working on his sermon, and he came to some part that he was having trouble with, he would ask me, you know, I’m having trouble applying this part. Can you think of some, you know, some application for this? What you know, as Gavin said, you know, what do you what do you think this verse means? What do you think, you know, or I’m trying to figure out a way to say this thing? And I don’t think this is clear, is this clear to you. And he really involved me in that process. And I just felt like that, that was great. First of all, to get to kind of, you know, go behind the scenes in the sermon, which is, you know, it’s sort of a privilege that you can exploit in a ministry family in a way, like not all the kids get to weigh in on the sermon, but you get to weigh in on the sermon. And then it also made me just feel valued as a human being that I could do theology, that I was able to think about this text that my dad also was not infallible in his thinking about the text or understanding the text, and that we could, that’s something that we could do together. And so he very frequently would ask me questions, and maybe he really secretly knew the answer. But I honestly think that he honestly wanted to dialogue with me about it. And it made me feel valuable and gave me also confidence, then to go and study the Scriptures on my own as well. Gavin, you’ve talked some about how your dad would like invite you to come on a visit, or you invite your kids to go to a hospital visit or something. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because I think that’s really sweet. Yeah,

Gavin Ortlund
one of the things that I never want my kids to experience is, oh, I don’t get enough time with dad, because he’s always out doing ministry. And so one possible solution to that, that I’ve been exploring is, what are the ways that I can invite my kids into ministry with me, and I have some great kids who really do have loving hearts. And so it’s been fun. You know, just recently, we had one of our high school seniors was graduating and driving off to college. And I was driving over to pray with her family and her before she left, and I invited my second oldest and third oldest. And, you know, I, I want to be careful, I don’t I think there’s some forms of ministry you can’t always invite your kids into. So you have to have some wisdom and knowing what are the right contexts and so forth. But I felt really, this was a good opportunity. And so on the way over there, I was just teaching them, you know, hey, we’re going to serve people. Sometimes people feel really served when you ask them questions. So I want you both to think of one question, you can ask them and then be a good listener, as they’re explaining it. And then we’re going to pray for them. And if you want to pray for them, you can too but you don’t have to. And I was just, it was just so fun. And it was so cool to see them respond to that. And they rose to the challenge. You know, my eight year old and my six year old made me very proud. But it was just so cool. And then then they’re it’s just it’s a win win all around. They’re getting time with me, as opposed to me driving off. They’re seeing ministry modeled, the family is getting time with us. And it just it felt really good and it made me think I want to keep exploring ways to do that. One thing I’ve been thinking about is with travel Um, maybe each time because I don’t like to travel and be away from my kids and my wife, maybe there’s a way where each time I’ll bring one child or something like that with me, or, or sometimes I’ll do that, and my oldest son will come with me. And he’ll be a part of the experience. And that way, I can still go administer. But I’m not away from my family. And they’re seeing that it just feels healthy for them to be involved in, in certain respects like that. And definitely something to consider. Obviously, not everything you do, can you bring your kids with, but sometimes you can, and it can be fun, and it can be great for them to see.

Megan Hill
We used to play a game that we stole from another family, a family that did campus ministry, but they would and then we started doing this, they on the way home from the Ministry event or from church or whatever, they would give their kids a piece of candy, if they could say something they found out about somebody in the congregation that they didn’t know before. And so there was a season of maybe a year or two that we especially when we had just come to a new church were in the car on the way home, I was like, if you found out something about somebody that you didn’t know before, tell me I’ll give you a piece of candy. And so it this sort of sent them off on a little asking questions, hunt, which is a good skill for them to develop. And then it also helped them to know the congregation a little bit better, as well. Winfrey, is there something your parents did to kind of involve you in ministry?

Winfree Brisley
I think, to what Gavin was saying earlier about asking them theological questions, and really being intentional in that I just look back and think about just what a blessing it was to have a trained, you know, seminary theologian, as a dad, you’re someone who can really answer all the big questions and take it down to a level that a child can understand or even as a college student, I mean, one of my favorite stories is that I went to UNC Chapel Hill, and I took Bart Urban’s New Testament class as a freshman. And so some of you may know that he has a reputation for sort of destroying the faith of all of these freshmen who come in and don’t realize what they’ve signed up for. And I knew what I was signing up for. And I’m not really quite sure why I did it. But I would leave class. He’s very convincing. And he presents all of these, you know, scholarly sources and things and you leave and think, Gosh, have I gotten this all wrong, but I would leave the lecture hall and I would immediately go and call my dad and say, Okay, Dr. ermine said that there’s this inconsistency in this gospel. And okay, what do you got dad? Because it sounds like he made a compelling case. And my dad could say, well, no, what he didn’t tell you as that this Greek word can actually be translated that way. And there are lots of scholars who’ve looked at this. And they’ve said that this is another explanation. And it actually is a better one for these reasons, right? And so he could walk me through all of these things that the average freshman taking this class didn’t have access to, and what a gift that was to me to be able to hear robust theological arguments in favor of Scripture, from a trusted source in my dad. And that’s just one example. But all along, he was always ready to answer a big theological question to train me in these things. And so it’s just been such a gift, even as I think about passing this on to my kids, and I still will bring him in my parents live near us. And so when my kids come to me with the big theological questions, I say, Go as Gatti. He’s great at this. But it’s just really sweet to see that generational thing happening again. And it’s just such a gift to have that kind of training in the home.

Megan Hill
Yeah, I think that there are, for as much as we talk about the unique challenges of growing up in a ministry home, there are unique privileges. And there are not very many children on the planet who have a trained theologian that lives with them that can answer those questions. And so I think that’s great. I think another thing is, you know, even as much as we sort of think, well, the expectation that our kids would be at everything, you know, that sometimes that can be hard. And yet what is being at everything mean? Well, it means that again, and again and again, they’re exposed the preaching of the Word, they’re exposed the sound of the gospel, they’re exposed to God’s people who are helping them pointing them to Christ. You know, they’re exposed to the means of grace, whether that’s in the Lord’s supper or in baptism. They’re exposed to what it means to sing together the praises of God, they’re exposed to the prayers of God’s people. You know, one of the privileges I think of being a pastor’s kid is that lots of people are praying for you. Like you have an entire congregation or entire ministries worth of people who probably regularly pray for your dad, pray for your family, pray for you to come to salvation by being very visible, whatever downsides that that has. It also has the upside of you. You’re in the front of people’s minds for prayer. And it’s overwhelming to me to even to think about all the people that I’m sure prayed for me over the years and what a privilege that is. To be a kid who has this army of people who are praying for them to come to know Christ and to grow in grace and to love Jesus more. Gavin, what are some other privileges you think of?

Gavin Ortlund
Yeah, I think just you know, for everyone here who is serving in ministry, I think our culture increasingly looks with disfavor upon ministers to think about how pastors or priests are portrayed in movies and TV, it’s often very negatively. And I just want to encourage people to know what you’re doing. If you’re serving the Lord, to the best of your ability, you’re doing such a noble thing. So let’s not let the the challenges, you know, fill our minds so much, what you’re doing is noble, and it’s wonderful for your kids to see you doing it. And praise the Lord for that they’re going to have throughout their life, even if you’re imperfect, but if you’re sincerely serving Christ, they’re going to see this model of what it looks like to serve the Lord. And, you know, we often will emphasize that there’s no specially sacred callings that, that all vocations can be used by the Lord. And that’s wonderfully true. But it’s also true that for a child to see their parent persevering in ministry, is a beautiful thing, and you’re giving them a model of serving the Lord. So, you know, I just think it’s good to see in the Scripture says, He who desires the role of an overseer desires a noble task. And that’s wonderful to remind our hearts of that one really interesting, specific benefit is there’s something about ministry that does emphasize study and the life of the mind. And it’s interesting that there are so many pastors, kids who go on to produce great intellectual works, works of literature. And it’s just amazing how many famous authors are pastors, kids, for example, and seems disproportionate. And so it’s just interesting to reflect upon that is one, one benefit of there’s something about ministry that induces you to teaching mode, and then often plays out for your kids. It’s a wonderful thing.

Megan Hill
Okay, so raising pastor’s kids is a glorious privilege. I think that we’ve seen that. But sometimes it’s also really hard. And each of us have known seasons of our lives when we didn’t like it. And when we were further from the LORD than we would have liked to have been, and when, probably when we resisted our parents instruction and resisted the life God had given to us I’m sure, there are some of you who are with us today who are going through really hard seasons with your children and children, even walking away from the Lord and struggling with hard things in their lives or, or just little ones who are just extremely difficult. And so I’ve asked Winfrey, which you just share with us like, what is the hope? What is the hope for raising pastor’s kids? What’s the gospel hope that we have? Yeah,

Winfree Brisley
so I keep mentioning this fishbowl analogy, but I’ll use it one more time and just say, to piggyback on some of these benefits, we just talked about if pastor’s kids are growing up in a fishbowl, they are swimming in the means of grace. And so what is surrounding them and bolstering them and all over them are the word and God’s people and prayer and discipleship and all of these wonderful things. And it is such a gift, a privilege for them to have that it’s a protection, it’s care over them. And so I, over the years as I’ve interacted with, whether it’s seminarians in town, we have an RTS in Charlotte, one of their campuses, or its pastors and their wives that I interact with. I’ve had this repeat conversation where as I’m getting to know, someone I mentioned at some point that I’m a pastor’s kid, and they have this almost like visible sigh of relief, and they go, Oh, and you turned out okay. Like, like, you still love the Lord. And you work in ministry. And wow, like, really? Like it didn’t screw you up. And now, and I’m always like, no, it’s wonderful. Like, are there challenges? Yes, but I want you all to walk away realizing what a blessing what a privilege, it really is to grow up in ministry. And so of course, you know, we want to be aware of some of the pitfalls or the the challenges of it. But at the end of the day, I don’t want you to leave thinking that you being a pastor, and raising your children in ministry is a liability to them. It is is not, we serve a God who is faithful to 1000s of generations of those who love Him. And you are bringing your children into those generations. And so, you know, I’m now third generation of some that Gavin has as well I believe of those who have sought to serve the Lord in various ways in ministry and Lord willing, maybe your children will be as well whether to Gavin’s point, they do that in vocational ministry, or you’ve just equip them to go out as a writer or a scientist or someone else who takes these means of grace that they’ve been given in your home and take them out into the world and so, be encouraged. Your children are in a wonderful place as they grew up in your home.

Megan Hill
So We would like to take a few questions. I’m for the sake of the video, I will repeat them and then we’ll I’ll ask Winfrey or Gavin to answer them. Is there somebody who has a question that they would like to ask in the middle there and the green shirt?

Unknown Speaker
Thank you guys for sharing. Did your parents love each other? Well, and how did they? Did their marriage display the gospel in your home? And then Gavin, if you can speak for him as a pastor, what does your marriage how does that play?

Megan Hill
Okay, so the question is, what about marriage? How do pastors and their wives cultivate a marriage that then has an impact in the home? And then he specifically asked if Gavin being a pastor would address sort of what he and his wife do to cultivate their marriage and ministry?

Gavin Ortlund
Great question. I think one thing that’s been helpful for us to think about is giving a lot of freedom to the, in this case to my wife, to feel free to use the gifts she does have, and not feel any sense of pressure that because she’s the pastor’s wife, she has to kind of fill a slot. Because every, every marriage is different. Everyone’s gifting is different. Not everyone is called to do public speaking, not everyone is called to lead a small group. But my wife really has incredible gifts at Outreach, and just connecting with non church people in our community. And so she started a ministry of just watching over the kids and letting them play on the church playground and inviting other young moms from the community onto the church grounds who normally would never come on to church property. And that’s been a just an awesome ministry for her to have. Another thing is just the just the freedom to receive from your church family. Sometimes it’s we feel almost guilty when we’re in ministry, and we’re in a position where we’re constantly pouring out, it’s actually healthy for all parties involved, to be humble and vulnerable to receive help in ways you really needed to share your prayer requests. And then as we’re in a season with five young kids, we have needs. I mean, you know, every day is a push. And so allowing these wonderful people at our church to offer to babysit, to to offer to help Esther get the kids ready on a Sunday morning. There’s a there’s almost a ministry to them sometimes, because they feel now involved in certain ways that are meeting a need for them even while they’re meeting a need for us. So just having the openness to receive is actually healthy on all all the way around as opposed to feeling totally self sufficient. And then I would just say one other practical thing is take vacations. Sometimes people in ministry for financial reasons or other reasons, don’t take enough vacation time. They don’t take a day off. Find a hobby with your spouse. For us. Simple things like going on walks in the beautiful Ojai weather, we can just talk there’s no disruption, getting out of town, getting even just a weekend away, find an Airbnb explore different place. Vacation is so healthy for family life. And it’s a practical way to prioritize our family. Sometimes people in ministry don’t take enough vacation. And I want to anecdote on that. I had a friend who was wondering, should I leave the ministry because I’m so exhausted. He took a sabbatical. He came back totally refreshed. And he realized it wasn’t that I not called to ministry, it’s that I just needed a sabbatical. Those of you who are in ministry are working hard. It’s relationally emotionally psychologically depleting. It’s okay to take care of yourself. And vacations and Sabbath rest. And sabbaticals are one way to do that for yourself and for your marriage.

Winfree Brisley
Yeah, one thing to your question about what did I see in my parents marriage. I really appreciated how my dad’s little bit different schedule, being a pastor created unique opportunities for him to serve my mom and to serve our family. And so he always took off Thursdays as his day off, so we had a weekday off. And once my brother and I were in school, my mom went back to teaching full time she was an elementary school teacher. And so she was working full time. He was working full time, but he had Thursday’s available to him. And so he would use that to serve the family. So he was the one who bought the groceries most weeks, he would dust and vacuum the house. He would figure he would cook dinner that night or you he would use his Thursday day off. And then Saturday, we’d have you know, kind of a family day off. But it’s Thursday, weekday day off and mom was at work and we were at school, he would use that time to take a load off of her, recognizing that she was also working full time she was also carrying a load in the ministry life and I just always thought that was a beautiful picture of him being very servant hearted, not just a servant to the church, but to her and to our family.

Megan Hill
Yeah, I think related to that, just leaning into that weird schedule of ministry. is okay, you know, so in my marriage to a pastor, you know, he may be out every night of the week, but he can come home for lunch, and the two of us can get takeout and have a lunch date, you know, even if it’s just an hour, you know, and we can do that, or, you know, he’s working the whole weekend. But he is taking a weekday off, my husband takes Thursday’s off, too. And so he can go to the ballgame with the kids or whatever. And so, yes, ministry life is weird, but you shouldn’t, as Gavin said, feel guilty about taking the lunch off when you’re going to be working all night at the session meeting or whatever, like you, your family needs that and you need that as well. Okay, what’s another question? The a woman in a white t shirt right there. Your kids just hearing criticism about their parents or even themselves? Okay, so the question is, your kids hear people critiquing you, as a pastor or a pastor’s wife? I hear people saying negative things about the church. How do you handle that with your children when they’ve heard something negative about about the parent or the ministry?

Gavin Ortlund
And the critics? Well, I understand the question is the criticism of the pastor or of the kids? That both Okay, well, this is tough. I mean, my protective fatherly heart kind of kicks in and, you know, I think it’s okay to set reasonable boundaries and to seek to, to shield our kids, as much as is reasonable and godly and wise, you know, I could imagine a circumstance in which we might enlist the help of a fellow elder to think through how can we give loving instruction, if the criticism came from someone within the church, to help that person understand the impact that that hat, and it’s not wrong to defend yourself, it’s not wrong to protect your kids. You know, all of that is is good to think through, sometimes in my online ministry, because I do a lot of things on YouTube and elsewhere online, I have just, there are just the most harsh criticisms. And so I think one thing when we have younger kids is, the last micro event that was a part of this morning was about social media. And we were just talking about the wisdom of delaying our kids getting onto social media and being not to set an exact law for everyone. But just to think about this, that we need to protect our kids from some of the exposure that can come through that whole realm that can be so unhelpful. And if you’re, if you’re in ministry, and you have a more public profile, it can be something you really have to think about is how do I shield my kids in appropriate ways from that? If the criticism at the end of the day is something that’s it’s not as actively harming your child, but they’ve heard the criticism, there might be a time where you might want to try to model what does it look like to receive criticism that in a way that is humble, and that is, you know, not overly defensive? And because we can get in an overly combative mode. And so if it’s a criticism that maybe isn’t totally wrong, for example, there might be a time to say, you know, talk, talk with your kids about when we have a criticism. You know, I’ve heard Tim Keller talked about when he gets criticism, how he always tries to see what can he learn from it? Maybe we have a conversation with our kids like that, when we get criticism? How do we know the difference between the criticism we just reject because it’s not from the Holy Spirit is not good. It’s just hateful, versus the criticism we can learn something from. And that’s a great opportunity to teach our kids, there’s probably so much more we could say on this, but I don’t want to go on too long.

Megan Hill
That’s a life lesson right there. I mean, even if they go on to have some other job that’s not in ministry, we all need to learn how to receive criticism humbly. So

Winfree Brisley
yeah, I was just going to add on to that conversation that Gavin is having, I think one thing that’s helpful helpful is to acknowledge for your kids that, you know, that might be hurtful to them, right? It’s hurtful to hear your dad criticized, they might then feel sort of negatively towards whoever has said this. And so helping them figure out what did they do with that, because this is still a fellow church member. And they’re going to see this person again. And maybe it’s even their Sunday school teachers or their, their friend’s parent. And so how should they think about continued interactions with this person now that that the child has heard them criticize you or the child himself. And so my dad had this little phrase, that you act yourself into a new way of feeling. And he would say, you know, sometimes it’s really hard when we’re criticizing and we might not feel warm and loving towards this person, but we are going to act in ways toward them that are loving, and we are going to ask the Lord to bring our hearts along in that. And so and I saw him do that in times when there was some particular people in the congregation who were really attacking him and going after him. And he was showing up at their kids athletic events and cheering for them, because that was important to their family. And so I think Showing your kids you’re giving them these ideas of you know, we continue to love it even if we don’t feel it, and what might that look like and giving some some categories for how they continue to push push into relationship with people who might have been critical of your family, even when it’s hard.

Megan Hill
When more. Over there, I see a woman in blue shirt

I don’t know if any of us want to read our parents. Tell us about a mistake you’ve made as a parent. Or I can tell you about.

Gavin Ortlund
I’ve could probably, truly I can think of many more mistakes I’ve made than I’ve seen in my parents. I mean, I always talk about my parents appreciatively. And that’s just a sincere thing. I’m just so grateful for them, but not that they are perfect. And we all do make mistakes. And it’s okay. I mean, I think some of the things I’ve already mentioned, the tendency because I’m a perfectionist to think. But on the Sunday lunch, you know, a discipline my wife and I have fallen into is, we’re just not going to say anything negative during the lunch, just save it for like the afternoon coffee. You know, give it at least like an hour before you launch into what didn’t go well about church today. Because there’s always something I mean, there’s always things you can find that even just about myself, there’s things I wish I’d done this better. And that goes back to we want our kids to experience Sundays as a joyful day. We also do a special breakfast every Sunday, we try to find as many ways as possible to make Sunday’s happy, so that our kids wake up and say, Oh, it’s Sunday. Great. That means we get you know, we get cinnamon rolls today. And we have other little fun things about Sunday. So that’s one thing is just being disciplined about when we’re sharing about the challenges of church, I will say I’ve made the mistake about sermon illustrations before not so much an in depth illustration, but just sharing about my kids in ways where some of them are more introverted, and would just rather me not share about them specifically. And so that’s another thing I’ve had to learn. It’s just, you know, I don’t need to I don’t need to necessarily reference them if they’re not, if they’d rather that I not. So that’s where I’ve had to grow in sensitivity and awareness to that. I will just say one thing that’s related to this. And that is, it’s wonderful to know, the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ covers a multitude of sins, and love covers over a multitude of sins, we will all make mistakes. But what really will make the difference in the end is, I think two things. Are we genuinely walking with Jesus, our kids can tell if you’re genuinely walking with Jesus. And number two, do you genuinely love your kids? You know, the Bible says love covers a multitude of sins. So it’s wonderful to know even when we make mistakes, that there’s grace, even for pastoral blunders, which we will make.

Megan Hill
Well, we are so glad that all of you have come. I’m going to ask Gavin if you just just pray for the people who are here and their ministries and their children before we leave. For

Gavin Ortlund
thank you both. Let’s pray. Father in heaven, I pray for each person who’s in this room right now, many people in ministry perhaps going back to challenges at home, maybe there are some who are here who are facing real severe challenges in their ministry context. Maybe Lord, there are some of us who are here who have children about whom our hearts are deeply burdened, and we lose sleep over them and we’ve shed tears over them. I pray for each person here that you would minister Your grace to them right now to give them insight, wisdom, hope, perseverance, that we would run the race well, that is before us that our kids would be able to say I saw Christ models in mom, I saw Christ modeled in dad, or whatever that relationship might be. Lord, help us to be faithful help us to continue to repent when we fall short of what you’re calling us to. We pray for our kids. Lord, we pray that we would learn more and more how to serve them well. And Lord, we pray you pour out Your Holy Spirit upon your church for a mighty revival for a mighty awakening. Our hearts are a burden for those in the younger generation, many of whom are wandering from the church and wandering from you. We want people to know the power of the gospel, the glory of the love of Jesus, we pray you drawn many to yourself in our day, strengthen your church’s blessing. Equip each person here as we leave the safety on our travels home and be glorified in our lives and ministries we pray. mighty name of Jesus we pray, Amen.